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Jul 22, 2008 · BuddhaJones Message Board

Sects as Belief Systems?

Nichiren

Are sects -- especially Nichiren sects -- based on belief systems rather than religious inspiration/aspiration?

I hadn't really thought about the distinction between the two (belief vs. religion) until I read an interesting interview on Salon (hat tip: Tricycle) with James Carse, author of The Case Against Religious Belief:

It sounds like you're saying that belief doesn't need to have any religious associations. You could just as well be talking about Nazism or Maoism or Serbian nationalism.

Exactly. In fact, very passionate believers are often not at all religious. However, it does happen to be the case that people who hold on to beliefs with great passion begin to describe themselves as religious. For example, the Nazis had a kind of pseudo-religious understanding of themselves. Hitler talked about a 10,000-year Reich. That's taken right out of Christian mythology -- the kingdom of God going on forever and ever. The swastika is, after all, in the form of the cross. So Hitler was a passionate believer -- not religious but pseudo-religious -- ascribing to himself some sort of religious aura.

So what is it that holds together a belief system?

A belief system is meant to be a comprehensive network of ideas about what one thinks is absolutely real and true. Within that system, everything is adequately explained and perfectly reasonable. You know exactly how far to go with your beliefs and when to stop your thinking. A belief system is defined by an absolute authority. The authority can be a text or an institution or a person. So it's very important to understand a belief system as independent of religion. After all, Marxism and Nazism were two of the most powerful belief systems ever.

Now, not all Nichiren sects fit this description, but some do. Many sects approach Nichiren's teachings as a belief system rather than a religion.

And if you continue reading the interview, you'll probably begin to wonder if Nichiren Buddhism is a religion at all:

In your book, you say the only defining characteristic of religion is its longevity. It has to be around for a very long time to qualify as a religion.

Exactly. That's a very interesting contrast with belief systems. Belief systems have virtually no longevity. Think of Marxism. As a serious political policy, it lasted only about 70 or 80 years. Nazism only went 12 years. And they were intense, complete, comprehensive, passionately held beliefs. But they ran out very quickly. The reason the great religions don't run out as quickly is that they're able to maintain within themselves a deeper sense of the mystery, of the unknowable, of the unsayable, that keeps the religion alive and guarantees its vitality.

The interview offers supersized food for thought. Read it here.

13 comments

Engyo

OK, you got me here:

And if you continue reading the interview, you'll probably begin to wonder if Nichiren Buddhism is a religion at all:
In your book, you say the only defining characteristic of religion is its longevity. It has to be around for a very long time to qualify as a religion.
 
Please define "very long" as you intend it to be used in the discussion?Nichiren Buddhism has been practiced for over 750 years. Some Nichiren groups have been in existence for less than a century of course, but Nichiren Buddhism is no spring chicken.Namaste, Engyo
brooke

Thanks for posting, Auntie.In terms of longevity, he's talking about thousands of years:

Well, let's talk about the five great religions: Judaism, Christianity, Hinduism, Buddhism and Islam. Hinduism is 4,000 years old. Judaism is hard to date but about 3,000 years old; Buddhism 2,600; Christianity 2,000. And Islam has been with us for 14 centuries. The striking thing is that each of them has been able, over all these centuries, to maintain their identity against all kinds of challenges. Let's say you're a Muslim and you want to know what Islam is about. So you begin your inquiries and you find that as you get deeper and deeper in your studies, the questions get larger and larger. If people come to religion authentically, they find their questions not answered but expanded.
I like the part about questions getting larger as you go deeper into study.750 years is a good run for Nichiren Buddhism. I have no doubt that some of the more modern "movements" that claim to represent Nichiren Buddhism have more in common with Mao and Marxism (belief systems) than with religion. Carse's comments about evangelical Christianity in the interview seem to apply to the "mega-churching" of Nichiren Buddhism.
To look at these huge mega-churches, for example, the startling thing to me is when you go to their services, you don't have any sense of the enormous complexity of the history. You have the feeling that Jesus walked in here yesterday, and the minister will pick up a few contemporary cultural phenomena, like popular music. You're seated in something like an auditorium. There's no cathedral atmosphere. There's no great chanting choir. I think it's lost that indefinability.
Maybe this is why I long for a revival of Nichiren mysticism. I want "that indefinability."Carse's book on Amazon:http://www.amazon.com/dp/15942...
Engyo

Brooke -You wrote:

Maybe this is why I long for a revival of Nichiren mysticism. I want "that indefinability."
May I then recommend one or two weeks worth of pilgrimage to various historical sites of Nichiren Buddhism in Japan?Here is a link to the blog from our pilgrimage in Oct. 2006:http://www.nichiren-shu.org/bo... Namaste, Engyo
brooke

Thanks for the link, Engyo. I looked at all the pages. It must've been a wonderful trip. Nichiren Buddhism has a colorful history and many beautiful traditions, and I guess you have to go to Japan to really see that. I remember long ago visiting Taiseki-ji and being surprised to learn that Nam-myoho-renge-kyo pre-dated World War II! It was news to me.I need to find a better way of explaining what I mean by Nichiren mysticism. I don't just mean looking at the historical and cultural roots of Nichiren practice. I think of the journey into mysticism as an internal one and maybe a timeless one. You don't necessarily have to go into a monastery or visit a far away temple to cultivate it.I want to get in touch with a deeper, more fundamental state of life. When I say that, people say, "Just chant. That's what chanting is. as you chant, you'll expand your state of life." OK, well I've been chanting, and I "get" that the whole practice is about tapping into Buddha awareness.But I just have this sense that something's lacking. I feel like everything is trial and error. Robin posted something here earlier saying that he learned all the wrong things for the first 20 years of practice, then spent 10 years unlearning it (not a direct quote, sorry if I mangled it, robin.) I feel the same way. I feel like we're all groping around in the dark.Maybe that's how it's supposed to be. We all have to come to our own understanding. Maybe I just need to trust the Gohonzon more, trust that I am on the path I need to be on. When I say I long for a revival of Nichiren mysticism, I mean I wish there were teachers who have walked through dark nights of the soul with this practice and can provide some type of insight into what's going on when you get down into the messiest depths of life. I'm not talking about having a crisis toso, like chanting 10 hours to save your job/house/loved one, etc. I'm talking about a sustained journey into union with ultimate reality.I'm probably not making any sense. My thoughts are all half-baked. I know this is off-topic for this thread, but I would appreciate any and all comments.

Engyo

Hi again, Brooke -I think you are making some sense.  May I respectfully ask how many Nichiren Buddhist teachers have you encountered, to determine whether they can approach your description above?  Have you tried corresponding with any of them, or heard them teach, or conversed with them?  Have you limited the scope of your search in any way, and could widening that scope help you find what you are wishing for?I know of a couple of people who might fill such a bill, for me.  I'm not suggesting that they would fill it for you; you would need to meet and talk with them yourself to decide that.  I have met more than that couple of people, but many of the rest of them did not speak much or any english, which makes communicating with them a lot harder.There are a much larger group of folks whose practice and example inspires me to continue, but whom I wouldn't place in the category you describe above.I guess my real question is whether you believe you are wishing for someone who does exist but you just haven't encountered yet, or do you truly believe that no such people exist today?Namaste, Engyo  

brooke

I have been lucky to meet several amazing individuals. Only one would I say, however, had vision beyond his sect, a vision that I would call radically universal. I still think back on things he taught me -- it was more his perspective, his whole attitude rather than any specific thing he ever said. He is the only person I have ever met that I would call a Nichiren mystic.I asked him how he became the way he is. He never really said, except that it was a lonely path and many people questioned his fitness to say anything about Nichiren Buddhism to anyone. This guy understood something with every cell of his body, radiated something really special to those around him.I have also known many smart, caring people who are knowledgeable about Buddhism, but it's not the same. And it's not like I need encouragement in faith, you know? It's not like I'm looking for someone with credentials who says, "I have studied and prayed, therefore I am qualified to tell you what to do next in this tradition." There are many, many people like this, and all make a valuable contribution.But. What I wonder is, why aren't there more people like the first guy? Someone with no credentials, no authority, no particular eloquence -- but with some kind of grace or direct, electric connection to something big. That's what I want, too.Maybe I just need to get over any kind of fantasy that this type of thing can be taught or "passed on" from one person to the next. Maybe the only authentic path is the one I carve for myself -- like the first guy. It's not as if he set out to be a beacon of humble sanity and paradoxical wisdom, but that's what he became as he walked through fire.

Engyo

Brooke -OK, I guess I missed the exact way you meant "teacher" above.  I've often wondered if the reason we don't "see" many enlightened beings around us is that they are smart enough not to advertise the fact................knowing how humans tend to treat such claims/admissions.

beryl

I've often wondered if the reason we don't "see" many enlightened beings around us is that they are smart enough not to advertise the fact................knowing how humans tend to treat such claims/admissions.
So true, Engyo. My hope is that enlightened beings are everywhere, but our brains get in the way of perceiving them.brooke, I hope you will write a diary about Nichiren mysticism and expand on your thoughts. I'm not sure if I totally get what you're saying.
auntie

I did not mean any insult to Nichiren Buddhism and its history of several centuries. As Brooke pointed out, the author was talking in terms of thousands of years. That is all I meant.

JaiGohonzon

No.   I think "belief" is not a dymamically  helpful  word to contrast with "religion." in the above piece.  Reading The Avatara Sutra, Shakyamuni, for all intents and purposes more concisely & cogently anticipated Count Alfred Korzibsky's great life work, "Science and Sanity" his muti-hundred page tome saying that "the map [words] are not the territory." Shakyamni in this Sutra qestioned the usefulness of words, sentences, letters. It's amazing how much of the value of words I think a better word to contrast with "belief" would be a real synonym, "faith." AND STILL it is vital that we are constantly aware that "belief" is NOT belief and "faith" is NOT faith. They are squiggles on paper or sounds vocally uttered. As Shakyamuni hinted they mean nothing qua verbo - they are like fingers pointing to some experience. They so badly abstract the silent level in which real experience transpires. Most people are mentally ill because they mistake the abstracted non-experience for having experienced the True Experience. Posibly an example for Budhists is to say "I'm enlightend!" when they may actually not be enlighened but be very mixed up and erroneously think saying the words = the experience.If you hungered for food, would eating the menu sustain you? Absurd. Yet the entire life experiences of a large proportion of the population rests on abstractions that distort the silent level of experience. Vipassana meditation can pull the practitioner out of the false extraction and fully into the experience of mindfulness meditation.W2 has this to say about the subtle differences between the usage of "belief" and "religion" (faith): "Belief, as a rule, suggests little more than an intelectual assent; faith implies IN ADDITION (emphasis mine) the element of trust or confidence."I blieve in God and am a Buddhist. Can anyyone else here do that (sure hope so   :)May All Beings Be HappyJai

Armchair

In answer to Jai's question, I have been a bowling club Buddhist for 39 years and ran into God in the year 2000.  Since that point in time, I have investigated that relationship, along with Jesus, the Christ, whom I have also come to know well.  What's a Buddhist to do?  I announce myself as a "Buddhist/Christian" to those whom I trust and who know me well.  As a line leader in the bowling club, I teach nothing other that Nichiren Buddhism to the members, but that based on compassion, as it is supposed to be.  They have no idea.Best,Armchair

habile

Sectarian Buddhists are just poor quality local officials who love to rezone in their own image.Buddhism is the building and the sectarian mind simply loves to cover the building in scaffolding to carry out supposed restoration and remodeling. They chip away here, add there and just love to rebuild and rezone in their own image.When you are able to get past the disaster area of the remodeling on the outside and enter the building you understand how futile the remodeling is and how it is built upon delusion. The gilding and painting are just for show and delusion, and the building will still be standing long after the next attempt at remodeling has failed.Dogma is paint and only a thin veneer whilst the building is quite able to stand alone just as it is.

JaiGohonzon

Hello Armchair,I'm pleased to see another "Buddhhist/Jesusonian" here ;-)It amazes me how, contrary to the teachings of many of the earth's Great Religions, attempting to take the best of each can work so well for the ecclectic individual. It can produce fruits of serenity, faith, brotherly love that are greater than the eccectic individual can obtain by isolation in one single religion.At least this is highly true for me.God Bless / NMRK,jai

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