Y'know, I chant namu-myoho-renge-kyo all the time. I'm daimoku's biggest fan. But I think it's wrong to teach kids in school how to chant.
Teachers who force daimoku on their students probably think they're making a great "cause" for their students' happiness. But what they're doing is violating the kids' right to an education free from religious indoctrination.
Remember the school principal and SGI member who led chanting sessions to defeat his "enemies" at school? That story got a lot of play in Buddhist circles. It should be a warning to keep your religious beliefs out of the classroom.
(also, thanks to whoever installed the twitter feeds in the right-hand columns. interesting.)
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Hmm. If chanting was taught in a public school, i agree it's troubling. Indoctrination and all, as you said.I am trying to figure out what school it might be based on the info provided by the tweeter. she provided a link to her general location in Orangeburg, South Carolina. There are several possible "schools" near the address she gave (see google linky here.)Based on the info in the tweet, you don't know whether the tweeter was talking about public school, driving school, nursery school, college, etc.
Public school = no religion forced or otherwise. I fought the religious right when my last kid was going to school but I'll wage war against any person in a place of public trust foisting their religious opinions from a position of authority granted to them by American Democracy and paid for with my taxes. ^$%#em!
I'm not sure it is religion. I think there's a need to define terms. Certainly the chant is not directed to some particular deity or to anything other than the common experience of life. The only thing that seems religious about chantinhg is some people's belief of what it will accomplish. My problem is with the innaccuracy of calling it Tina Turner Nichiren Buddhism.And as far as ^$%#ing 'em goes. I think there's a big difference between shoving racist xenophobic misogynist prejudices down someones throat and forcing reason on people who don't want to be reasonable.
Clown, do you disagree that Nichiren Buddhism is a religion? I am surprised that you express doubt about whether daimoku represents anything religious. Christians could say that passages of the Bible are "not directed to some particular deity or to anything other than the common experience of life" -- so does that make it OK for kids to recite Bible passages in public school?Buddhism is a religion. Of course. Nichiren Buddhism is a religion. Granted, some people argue that it's a philosophy rather than a religion. But in the eyes of our government and the law (the tax code, for example), it's a religion.
Well if inm the eyes of the governmant it's a religion then almost certainly it isn't. You calling it a religion half a dozen times convinces me of nothing. The Jewish religion is a lie. The Christiuan religion is a lie. the Muslim religion is a lie. The Hindu religion is a lie. I guess if you can show me that deidicating one's self to the true nature of your own life is a lie, then I will seriously consider whether it is or isn't religion.
In your mind, all religions are lies.But Nichiren Buddhism is Absolute Truth, not a lie.Therefore Nichiren Buddhism is not a religion.Therefore Nichiren Buddhism is an appropriate addition to the public school curriculum.By that "reasoning" why bother to teach math, science, reading, or any other subject in school? Doesn't teaching the Absolute Truth of Nichiren Buddhism cover all the bases?Nichiren fundamentalists embarrass the entire tradition.
I wouldn't call your reason reasonable.All the Abrahamic religions are obviously false unless you believe in talking snakes, burning bushes, reanimated saviors, and angels dictating holy books. I don't and no REASONABLE person would. If you think dedicating yourself to your own highest potential is just as ridiculous then that's your opinion. I don't share it.
What? It's more reasonable to believe that Shakyamuni Buddha summoned countless beings out of the earth, levitated everyone into the sky, entertained visitors from distant galaxies, and preached to them all, as it says in the Lotus Sutra? Is that what you're implying?It's more reasonable to believe that chanting certain syllables to a certain piece of paper is the key to awakening to Buddhahood, as Nichiren claimed?Sorry, but there's nothing reasonable about it. To chant as Nichiren described, you have to have faith -- you have to believe in something that cannot be measured or monitored scientifically.All religions espouse magical, mystical and totally irrational stories, images, practices and beliefs -- Nichiren Buddhism is no different. It's trendy in Nichiren circles to pretend that Nichiren Buddhism isn't a religion. Somehow, it's all about "bringing out your highest potential" -- like a high-fiber diet or a Landmark seminar. People act as if only Nichiren Buddhism can be described this way -- "bringing out your highest potential" -- when actually it's the cheapest, most common phrase used by hucksters of everything from "power yoga" to charter schools to moisturizing cream.Claiming that somehow Nichiren Buddhism is reason but all other practices, religions and beliefs are "false" or "bullshit" -- well, that's just intellectually dishonest and fundamentally unreasonable.
You are aware that Christians believe that a man rose from the dead and ascended into the sky, they believe that this is historical reality. What it is is exactly bullshit.There may be some ignorant people who believe that a treasure tower rose out of the earth And that would be just as much bullshit.The thing is when you take the bullshit out of Christianity you are left with nothing else.With Buddhism not only can you renmove all the fantasies you could eliminate the Buddha himself and still be left with an acccurate view of human life. Yes buddhism is much more reasonable, no question at all. As far as hucksters go just becauase some bills are couterfeit doesn't mean they all are. Nor did I say all practices were bullshit. Judaism, Christianity, and Islam are nothing but bullshit and I could go on and on about how and why.
Clown, I think you must be trolling a bit on this thread to get under DD's skin. You've succeeded apparently.You are joking around I think. For example when you said that you could subtract the Buddha and all the fantastical sutras like the Lotus Sutra and Buddhism would still make sense. Really?If you subtract daimoku, the Gohonzon, and Nichiren himself...by definition you have no Nichiren Buddhism...and it makes no sense.So either I am misunderstanding you or you are kidding.
If you take away everything it neither makes sense nor doesn't as there is nothing left. I fail to see your point. Maybe you are joking? I meant what I said and said what I meant.
I really should let you have the last word Clown but I just gotta say.What you're describing is nihilism. Not Buddhism.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/N...
I didn't say anything about nihlism. I said that buddhism is based on reality and religions are based on fantasies. That wouldn't be so bad if they were wholesome fantasies but as they are the fantasy is that there are good people and bad people and that the good people belong to my religion. Religion is a disease buddhism is the cure.
"Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful." -Seneca"Buddhism is regarded by the common people as foreign, by the wise as true, and by the rulers as impossible to live up to." - Clown Hidden
If you believe that theism has been beneficial to mankind then your analysis of history is deluded. History tells the truth of whether a religion is true or not and theism in all its forms fails the test.Clown has correctly stated that with or without the Buddha, the reality of the nature of life is the truth that cannot be denied. T'ien-t'ai stated this principle almost 1500 years ago, and in fact, the Buddha stated it as well. It really doesn't matter that people think this or that because those thoughts are all born from delusion. In other words, "its just another version of how someone thinks it should be" [Henry Rollins], which has no basis in reality.Buddhism's basis is reality, not your interpretation of reality, which is skewed by your own conditioning.
What I'm digging about this discussion is how dogmatic people are when they insist Buddhism isn't a religion! The irony kills! They're like Bible thumpers who want to teach creationism in science class.Markp I have to call you out on this bigtime:
Uhh just about every scientist I've ever talked to would tell you the same thing about the natural sciences. The big difference: Scientists actually have ways of testing to prove or disprove claims about reality. These proofs can be independently tested and confirmed.Buddhism's basis is a THEORY about reality that cannot be tested or confirmed or measured or quantified at the stringent level of scientific fact.Buddhism is not a science. It is theory not fact. You can pretend all you want that Buddhism is THE ONE AND ONLY WINDOW ON REALITY. Sure. Go ahead. Your fanatical, blind dogmatism in this matter just goes to show what everyone knows...but what zealots refuse to admit...Buddhismisafreakin'RELIGION!I said we needed a defintion of religion. Here's some ideas.Religious belief usually relates to the existence, nature and worship of a deity or deities and divine involvement in the universe and human life. In some religions, like the Abrahamic religions, it is held that most of the core beliefs have been divinely revealed.Merriam-Webster1 a : the state of a religious b (1) : the service and worship of God or the supernatural (2) : commitment or devotion to religious faith or observance2 : a personal set or institutionalized system of religious attitudes, beliefs, and practices3 archaic : scrupulous conformity : conscientiousness4 : a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faithFrom AllAboutReligion.org:A strong belief in a supernatural power or powers that control human destiny. An institution to express belief in a divine power.A belief concerning the supernatural, sacred, or divine, and the practices and institutions associated with such belief.The sum total of answers given to explain humankind's relationship with the universe.In dictionaries, religion is defined as "any specific system of belief, worship, or conduct that prescribes certain responses to the existence (or non-existence) and character of God." Also, "a set of attitudes, beliefs, and practices pertaining to supernatural power."The problem lies when the definition includes a deity or superhuman power. For example, atheism is called a religion but the belief denies any power other than man. Other "religious definitions" are so broad as to include cosmology and ecology which most people regard as scientific studies and non-religious in nature.The terms "spiritual" and "sacred" add to the complexity of defining religion. Unless there are supreme beings or deities, most beliefs would not fall into this religious category. The beliefs of atheists and agnostics are that there is or is not a God and ethics do not necessarily matter. So are they a religion?--------------Maybe it's not black and white whether something is a religion or not. If Some one were to instruct students that they should love their neighbor. I would have no problem. If they want to teach that the world was created less than 10,000 years ago by a God who demands obediance. I would think that was wrong. If on the basis of their so called religion they say that some people are better than others based on their beliefs, gender, sexual preference, or anything else for that matter I would say that was wrong. So we need a definition for religion. I would offer this: Religion is a body of unverifiable nonsense chiefly used by the morally bankrupt to exert their control over ignorant people.Given that definition, which I feel is really the most accurate, I still can't decide whether the case before us qualifies or not I need more information on what the instructions were. If as in most instances the students were told that there was any benifit to the chanting other than an awareness of reality in the present moment then it was more religious B.S. But if on the other hand it was presented as a fun thing to do or a way of learning about your self then it was not.
"Buddhism's basis is a THEORY about reality that cannot be tested or confirmed or measured or quantified at the stringent level of scientific fact."I agree it cannot be tested, but it can be observed. That is what all the Masters of Buddhism have done. Observe.And, yeah, Buddhism is a religion. I have great faith in it. :)
According to the SGI publications, it's a freakin' religion.
Paging through this months Living Buddhism and I don't see any reference to SGI being a religion. I see a description as "A Global Community of Nichiren Buddhists. I also went through a World tribune from last month and didn't see it. Maybe you can cite an issue and a page.Maybe SGI does consider themselves a religion and not an educational and cultural society.If saying, "I am one with the true law of cause and effect." was anything other than stating a basic truth of existence I could see where it could be religious. Or maybe religion should be defined as "what ever is true"?
Clown, you're carrying this "Nichiren Buddhism isn't a religion" crap to the ridiculous. Look up SGI on the calif sec. of state website or the IRS. SGI long ago officially declared themselves an organized religion. SGI has availed themselves of all the privileges and protections that U.S. law extends to religious corporations.
I went to the two web sites you sugested and couldn't find anything. They may be registered as a religious organization, I have no doubt that they are registered as a non-profit but you don't have to be religious to do that. Whether they call themselves a religion or wether they are a religion doesn't matter to me. I said that chanting wasn't religious.
You're so disingenuous. Just look them up in any random state. Hawaii:https://hbe.ehawaii.gov/docume...MASTER NAME SOKA GAKKAI INTERNATIONAL - USABUSINESS TYPE Foreign Nonprofit CorporationFILE NUMBER 1781 F2STATUS ActivePURPOSE RELIGIOUSPLACE INCORPORATED California UNITED STATESREGISTRATION DATE Mar 18, 1966MAILING ADDRESS 606 WILSHIRE BLVDSANTA MONICA, California 90401UNITED STATESAGENT NAME BERT KAWAMOTOAGENT ADDRESS 2729 PALI HWYHONOLULU, Hawaii 96817UNITED STATESNichiren Buddhism is a religion, you idiot.
I suppose you're talkingh to your mother.