Every time there's a natural disaster -- earthquake, flood, famine, tsunami -- I brace myself for the inevitable inrush of stupidity from commentators who claim to speak for Nichiren. You know, people who say things like this:
Getting back to Nichiren, he went so far as to say that earthquakes are effects of the beliefs that the leaders of the land disseminate.
Nichiren knew nothing about plate tectonics. He didn't know even half of what the average Fifth Grader today knows about geology. That's not Nichiren's fault. If he knew these things, he likely would have revised his opinions somewhat.
As a devotee of Nichiren, I'm going to give him the benefit of the doubt and assume that his teachings weren't intended as victim-blaming cudgels. But that won't stop the Nichiren Fundamentalists from pointing fingers and claiming that erroneous beliefs caused destruction in Haiti. These people remind me of Christian Fundamentalists who deny evolution. Read A Fault Is Not a Sin for a general rebuttal of religious stupidity.
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These people? You found one, an obvious wacko on an obscure blog. Someone whom SGI would disavow in a second if they knew about her. You know, every time you link to one of these sites it moves up in Google's rankings.
Cultmember, please don't try to speak calmly to mroaks when he's off on a rant. ;-)It can be very hard for some people to wrap their minds around the idea that Nichiren can be completely right about some things, but completely wrong about other things. It has to be one way or the other -- all right or all wrong.I will totally admit that I had this mindset early in my practice. I took Rissho Ankoku quite literally, thinking we had to convert everyone to chanting if we were ever to have peace in the world. What can I say? I was younger then, and hadn't really thought through the implications.I was an unwitting Nichiren Fundamentalist. It's only when I started hanging out with bad influences (kidding) who were questioning everything -- the SGI organization, the way the teachings were presented, the Gohonzon, everything -- that I started to become more flexible and thoughtful in my Buddhist practice. So I don't think you need to go off on Nichiren fundies and call them stupid. But I do think there is value in pointing out the attitude (beliefs cause earthquakes) and offering a critique or opposing view. None of us can claim to speak for Nichiren, but we can point out that there are valid, non-fundamentalist ways to approach his teachings.
Who is your friend in Oregon? I live there (here) and I haven't heard anything about it. But I don't go to meetings very often.
Belief in cause and effect is a fundamental requirement of Buddhism, so I find it very strange indeed that people who call themselves Buddhist repeatedly deny it. When asked about the tragedy in New Orleans, the Dali Lama said it was their karma, eg; cause and effect. So the Dali Lama believes in cause and effect, but you guys don't? Is this a Buddhist blog or what?The natural occurrences of plate techtonics just happen to occur at this time, in this place. That is how people receive their retribution. They are all there together when it happens. Some were able to avoid dying, which is their karma. Some died, which is their karma. Most will suffer tremendously even though they didn't die, and that is their karma. You don't have to understand what they did to deserve the retribution, because it is as-it-is.
BTW, to speculate on the cause is quite ridiculous, because for all these people to be located at the same time and place indicates causes from a previous lifetime, not anything they may or may not have done this lifetime, although the conditions would appear to be consistent.
Hey, no one's disputing that people have karma.What I'm disputing is the assertion that "erroneous beliefs cause earthquakes."I think a lot of folks have a very messed up notion of what karma actually means.Earlier, Brooke linked to an interesting discussion of karma related to the Haiti quake, here:
Check it out.1. Actually, what goes around does come back around. This is called cause and effect. Whether or not it can come back around this lifetime is whether the conditions are present for it to do so. If not, it comes back when the conditions are present.2. Whether you call it a bank or a buffer, there is the consistency that requires the entity that committed the offense to pay the retribution. Call it what you will, but the reason people can't see through the darkness of life between death and rebirth is because if you knew what happened in a previous life you could avoid the retribution.3. To play the blame game only makes bad karma for yourself. You can't blame the dog because he bit you, and likewise, you can't blame the mugger who mugs you. In each of these instances the environments of both entities overlap and an effect occurs. If there is no inherent cause in your life you won't get mugged because you wouldn't be in that place at that time. So if you get mugged, the only blame is on yourself, not the mugger who is only acting in accordance with his own conditioning. Now, does it make sense for someone to blame himself? Only in that maybe they will make adjustments in their own life to not make bad causes. It doesn't do any good to dwell on these things. Just move on.
The Dalai Lama does not believe in cause and effect as you do. He does not have a simplistic, black and white understanding of cause and effect. What he was saying about Katrina was that it was their karma to go through a tragic experience, not that specifically it was their karma to die or suffer through a hurricane. There is a big difference and it has nothing to do with retribution.
Markp, I find this statement to be odious and facile:
Riight. And women are to blame when men rape them. Um, maybe this is what you think Buddhism teaches, but it's so frighteningly wrongheaded I don't even know where to begin. Blech.I'm worried that Markp's erroneous views will trigger an earthquake! Now we know why Yellowstone is suddenly seismically active.The US legal system does not subscribe to these faux-Buddhist beliefs, and identifies mugging as a crime for which the perpetrator is responsible and punishable. Thank god the courts are not "enlightened" enough to blame the victim.
"Riight. And women are to blame when men rape them."What would you have happen to a man that rapes a women? What would be an equal and opposite reaction that would occur in the next lifetime?Blame is a Christian concept that doesn't exist within Buddhism. I don't blame anyone for what happens to me, and I take full responsibility for my own life. I do not view myself as a victim, nor do I blame myself, and no one else should also. I don't like what happens in the world, but the reality is as-it-is whether or not anyone understands it.
Some day you may understand, but somehow I don't see that coming too soon. Go ask the Dali Lama if you don't believe what I say.
I don't see any difference in your distinctions. What about those that died in Katrina? What is different about them in what the Dali Lama said? How more tragic is death? Like I've said earlier, if you guys don't believe me, just go ask the Dali Lama. I guarantee he will go easy on your sensibilities, because that is the way he is.
Look, I haven't said anything about what caused the earthquake in Haiti. To do so would be extremely stupid, IMO, and we have witnessed this stupidity over and over again every time there is a tragedy. Even if someone could understand what the base cause was it could never be proven. However, there had to be a cause. In Buddhism there is always a cause or there cannot be an effect. If you don't believe this, even though you may practice Buddhism, you are not Buddhist, yet. I feel like I am trying to explain to Christians the basic tenets of Buddhism here, and I shouldn't have to. Nowhere in the sutras will you find the Buddha blaming anyone for what happens to them, yet he outlines what happens to people when they commit offenses against ethical behavior and Buddhism. I just searched tientai.net for the word blame and came up with no documents. Blame is a Christian concept so get over it. There is no blame to pass around. Don't blame your kids, don't blame your wife or husband, don't blame anyone for anything. Get past the blame game and you will find your own life will improve substantially! You know why? To blame someone for what happens to you is to deny the reality as-it-is that it, whatever "it" is, happened to you. People make mistakes and it may cause you suffering, but most people don't want to cause others suffering. There are vindictive people out there, but your kids or husband/wife, or friends don't want to cause you suffering. A mistake is a mistake, yet you suffered. The blame is not on your kids, friends, or husband. Likewise, you cannot blame the dog if he bites you, nor should you blame yourself! Blaming yourself just leads to lack of self confidence.Look upon humanity as a dog that has been conditioned, because that is what is going on. People are conditioned to act the way they do. If they are rapists or murderers it is because they have been conditioned to be that way. Predators will be predators, no matter what species, and their victims are not random even though it may appear to be so. This is the meaning of Dependant Co-Arising, that all life arises together at certain times so that the retribution can be realized. And please understand that the word retribution can be positive as well as negative. There is actually a non-duality at play here, but I don't want to go into that right now. This is already too long.
Three Truths, Three Conditions, Ten Factors, and Mutual Possession of the Ten Worlds. Add in Dependant Co-Arising, mix, not shake, and serve in a chilled glass.Want to know how it works? Practice, Study and Observe.
I think people are nuts if they think bad things happen to someone because of what religion they are. I don't even really think bad things happen to people who deserve to have them happen to them. I think bad things happen and it's bad for you if you happen to be there. Does that sound like I don't I believe in karma? I do believe in karma, just not the way many other people do. I think whatever causes you make will have effects on you and others, but I don't believe there is any balancing act by the universe running around and making sure that everyone's debits and credits are in order and everyone is getting repaid. In other word's life ain't fair.Nichiren like most people of his time saw omens and a divine hand behind many things. Most people today don't really believe those things literally. Unjust killing and warfare aren't believed to be the cause behind natural disasters. But they are disasters of their own. I don't know how much playing the pan pipes helps (though it wouldn't hurt and might be fun any way) the whole back to the land thing in the 70's went nowhere. Probably have to put up with the domination of the military industrial complex. I don't forsee any revolutionary change.The old saw, suffer what there is to suffer, enjoy what there is to enjoy.
I agree with you about blame. And labeling someone's situation as karmic retribution, negative or positive, is a great way to establish a social hierarchy like India's caste system. http://india_resource.tripod.c...Here is just a suggestion and without blaming you for the result, you might want to put a little KY jelly on some of your statements before you post them. Such as:
This is just an example of where someone might possibly take umbrage for the label you have imposed. I could also use your argument and say you are blameless for how people perceive you. Your interpretation of being misinterpreted, in turn, might frustrate you. Unless you don't care whether you are understood or not, which I do not believe to be true, otherwise, why are you here trying to dialogue? But, according to the paradigm you have set up in your examples, your frustration is your issue, not the people you tried to communicate with. No blame. Not much communication either.IOW, you can't explain how it works, because it's just a lot of mumbo-jumbo.
IOW, you can't explain how it works, because it's just a lot of mumbo-jumbo.
I certainly can't explain it. And what explanations there are are not convincing to me.
This thread offers some thought-provoking points. I feel that a large dose of humility is necessary when discussing karma."How karma works" has never been fully explained to my satisfaction. When people speak of "cause and effect" the explanations they offer are usually very simplistic. The sutras and commentaries are filled with these.For example, in the gosho, Nichiren relates the story of a woman who stomped on the Lotus Sutra. After death, she went to hell but her feet went to heaven because they had formed a relationship with the sutra, albeit a negative relationship, but that was apparently beneficial for her feet.Now, this is not a story to take literally. It is a simple fable to illustrate the idea that a relationship with the Lotus Sutra, whether one accepts or rejects it, is a good thing.How much of this is theology, and how much is salesmanship?Karma is unfathomable. Unfathomable, as Nichiren himself confessed. Anyone who claims to understand the ins and outs of karma -- the whys, whats and hows -- is most likely deeply deluded.We don't know why we have the karma we have. Nichiren teaches that regardless of our karma, we can function as bodhisattvas and reveal our Buddha nature. That is the key point, I feel. Karma is a reality, but it need not be fully understood or somehow repaired before we can awaken.
Yeah, I probably should have been a little softer, but the truth is that most people that practice Nichiren Buddhism really don't understand Buddhism, and this is true of a lot of other sects also. Thats okay as long as people are willing to learn, and even if they are not, at least they are practicing; however, I have been the sole voice pushing the understanding of ichinen sanzen for the last five years and sometimes I have had to be adamant to get others to even think about it. On E-Sangha I finally broke through to a few people and have watched them grow in the seriousness of their practice and understanding. If I hadn't pushed then no one would have ever listened.As for what anyone thinks of me, I don't care. People give more credence to celebrities than anything I have to say. I would like people to understand, but I've found over the years that all I can do is put it out there. As T'ien-t'ai stated; "cause and effect is either believed or it is not." He didn't leave much wiggle room, and I am not frustrated even though it may seem so in print. My life is in harmony with my environment and I have achieved a level of happiness that is profound in todays world.
I have done what I can in my "understanding ichinen sanzen" series. There is a lot that has to be done with that series as it is too short and too choppy for me, but it's more than anyone else has ever done since I have been living. I have tried to explain what is basically unfathomable in words that the common person can understand. Have you read the series?
I would like to correct something I said earlier. I said that blame was a Christian concept. This is wrong. Blame predates Christianity and should be considered as a human concept, as it does not exist in the rest of the animal kingdom for the most part, but probably has existed in humans for as long as we have been able to conceptualize our environment.
earlier in this thread someone commented:
There's a lot wrong with this comment in a discussion of Buddhism and karma.1. "Equal and opposite reaction": No, no, no, emphatically no. Get this out of your mind and vocabulary when discussing karma. Buddhist cause and effect is not the same as Newtonian cause and effect. Not even remotely similar. Equating the two results in a horrifyingly simplistic, materialistic misunderstanding of karma. Huge mistake. Stop it.2. "What would you have happen to a man that rapes a women?": I would have him arrested, prosecuted and imprisoned. And I would have people who assert or imply that rape victims somehow deserve or are responsible for being raped get a fucking clue. Start here.I did read a few of those and enjoyed them at the time butI should go back and read the whole series together.
Yes I have read it and to me it is rather incoherent. In any case it does not explain how karmic retribution works. I mean I can explain how the physical world works with equations like F=ma and e=mc squared. But how does karmic retribution wait around for the right conditions, possibly spanning lifetimes? Is there a giant computer in the sky with a database of all the causes I've made?
I understand this. It's just easier to write than a dissertation on cause and effect and how it works in conjunction with Dependant Origination.
Karma is unfathomable, in the sense that it manifests in so many myriad ways that it's simply overwhelming. Karma is not not-understandable however. The problem is that many of you have not been exposed to any real teachings that deal with karma in detail. To understand karma you must understand dependent origination and a number of other concepts, none of which stand on their own, but are interwoven with all the others.Unfortunately, karma is too often dumbed down to cause and effect. While karma includes cause and effect, it is a misnomer to say that it is equal to cause and effect. Since we cannot know what effect a particular cause may make, except in the most general way, there is not much sense in trying to figure that part of it out. And since everyone has both good and bad karma, there is no need to explain that.I recommend reading "The Fundamentals of Mainstream Buddhism" by Eric Cheetham. It deals with many of the central concepts that I have seen many Nichiren believers express confusion about. While it focuses on such topics as samsara, rebirth and karma from the context of early Buddhism, it is always good to go back to the beginning and learn the basics. At the same time, Mahayana did not stray too far from the understandings presented in this book.
I say don't worry about it. Accept what happens to you and move on without placing blame on anyone else. This is the way of the purity of mind, and when you purify your mind the environment follows.
I prefer T'ien-t'ai because those that write today about causality live lives like everyone else. They have not displayed the characteristics of a purified mind anymore than the local joe down the street. There works are for profit and their motive is fame or academic acclaim.Joe, if it doesn't show in their life then there is no real understanding. Nichiren, T'ien-t'ai, and Dengyo all mention this. It is called living the Lotus Sutra. Now for me to make a blanket statement without ever meeting these people can be construed to make it look like I don't know what I'm talking about, except that to date I have seen no one that is walking the walk. They all talk, but no one walks. I appear to be alone in this, and that's a pretty sad state of affairs for the priesthood, that a lowly individual such as myself can understand what has eluded them all their lives. So much so that they don't even seek it anymore. That's another blanket statement that I hope is not true.I am only trying to teach what I have awakened to. If anyone has a problem with that, that's okay with me.
Mark is a valued member of the Nichiren community because he says what he means and is sincere. I am not a prophet, nor is Mark, and he would agree. We both speak plainly without being politically correct, and we both see benefit in our practice every day. I would add that at one time Mark did react negatively toward me, as many do at first. :)
Wow, this thread took off.Sometimes I wonder if Nichiren was a narcissist or paranoid schizophrenic. The people who claim to flawlessly comprehend and uphold the teachings of Nichiren all seem to have similar qualities in common.
That is a perfectly valid point. I don't think it is too mystical sounding to say that certain philosophies, mindsets, groups and what have you, often tend to attract people with "mirrored" personalities. The Nichiren tradition does seem to have more than its fair share of self-righteous prophets, restorers-of-the-true-faith, and well, wackos. But then, this is a tradition that is polarized into opposing camps like no other, so perhaps that is to be expected. There are a number of intelligent, sane and reasonable folks around and it is too bad their voices are rarely heard over the din of the tiny minority of self-appointed saviors and proclaimers of solitary wisdomhood whom, I suspect, are only trying to get attention.
All over the world people bring suffering upon themselves because they have been conditioned to do so. So much so that it is apparent that the capacity for people to bring suffering on themselves is limitless and beyond any other species ability to do the same. Yet, they do so because they think it is going to make them happy. From those that revel in their own anger, calling it their passion, to those that continually blame their own misfortune on others. Everything they do, they do in the pursuit of happiness. They act in an animalistic fashion in the name of making money. They act in an animalistic fashion in the name of religion, and they hunger for anything they don't possess. They blame others for their unhappiness and set about their schemes of revenge, and all in the name of happiness, because revenge feels good, doesn't it? Anger feels good too, doesn't it? They feel good because they are all attachments. These are the conditions that are foist upon us since birth, yet deep down everyone knows what is right and wrong and you would think things would change with every new generation. The youth, knowing right and wrong, rise up in each generation only to be put down by their elders, thus enforcing the conditioning. It is this conditioning that has to change or the world as we know it will continue to decay, and along with the decay comes more tragedy as the environment mimics the minds of the people. People want to be happy, but they don't realize that all they have to do is to open their eyes and observe their own mind. It is only then that you will find that the Buddha Land is beneath your own feet, not on some far shore.Those people that have a difference of opinion with me will probably speak their minds as well, and that is okay. I look forward to reading their posts.
Looking for Markp's essay series on Ichinen Sanzen? Here are the links to it on this site.Part OnePart TwoPart ThreePart FourPart FiveEpilogue
Markp, I don't want to belabor this conversation, which seems to have come to a temporary conclusion. But I think you have a blind spot or double standard in your thesis that, for me, totally invalidates it.You're very concerned that people are "conditioned" to experience suffering. First off, suffering is one of the four noble truths -- a fact of life in samsara. All of Buddhism is focused on awakening from samsara, is it not? That's the point of practice, whether you practice in a Tibetan tradition, Zen, Nichiren, etc. So I don't see how understanding ichinen sanzen as you have explained it is more "key" to awakening than any other approach.Second, your blind spot (IMHO) is that you're kinda obsessed with those who in your view have "bad karma." Getting back to your assertions about mugging, you seem to think that a person who is mugged has "bad karma." But a mugger is merely conditioned to hit people over the head with their bad karma.You seem to miss the point that the mugger has worse karma (if karma can be comparative) because the mugger is inflicting suffering, making what I consider a very bad "cause." But in your explication, the mugger is somehow not responsible for his or her behavior -- rather it is the mug-ee who is to blame.Sorry, but that just makes me think you don't understand something really, really fundamental about Buddhism (and about life) and I dismiss everything you say as being, well, uninformed.This probably sounds harsh, but that's my honest take on your ichinen sanzen analysis.
I am well aware that life is suffering. This is a non-duality which can be overcome by understanding the quote "suffering without suffering, that is the truth." That comes from the sutras.Second, I don't miss the point that the mugger has worse karma than the person being mugged. Of course he has worse karma, but that does not alter the fact that you got mugged.Unfortunately, you dismiss without understanding. It is not possible for me to point out every condition so that you can link them together in some sequence you understand. What is possible is for you to observe what is happening around you every day and make the links yourself.
There hardly ever is one cause for something that happens. In fact after awhile it seems that everything is causually related. I wouldn't be writing this if I didn't find the subject interesting.I wouldn't be writing this if my parents never met.I wouldn't be writing this if the internet was never invented.I wouldn't be writing this if Christopher Columbus didn't "discover" the New World.After a while it seems that without all of human history I wouldn't be writing this.
Those are called conditions.
Creating the internet and sailing to North America seem to me to be willful acts.----------------------------------------Truth, in order for it to be very Truth at all, must be the Truth of all conditions, and not itself a special condition apart from other conditions.That is, no matter what arises, you cannot know what a single thing is. The World is a Mystery; your own being is a Mystery. Whereas the ordinary person continually abandons this Divine Mystery, in order to contract into knowledge and sensation, the Awakened One has perfectly and radically fallen into the condition of Divine Ignorance itself, and thus is perfectly aligned to the utterly spontaneous and unknowable play of the Divine. No-dilemma in mind, no-seeking in heart, for all forms of seeking are only forms of contraction and knowledge, and yet you still cannot know what one thing is.- Ken Wilber
"Creating the internet and sailing to North America seem to me to be willful acts. "They were causes which produced an effect and lead to future conditions. People tend to not fully understand conditions because they are simultaneous with the cause and effect. Conditions at birth are much easier to see because no one can see the causality, other than the mating of the parents.One way to look at conditions is if you ever said "I'll never do that again", you were just conditioned. Then there are the underlying conditions of the environment. The internet could be classed this way. Conditions get very complicated.
Sorry, but this seems very mixed up. In Buddhist dharma, an effect can only arise dependent upon a condition. How can they be simultaneous? The cause may be primary and the conditions secondary, but the conditions have to arise prior to the effect in order for the effect to be dependent upon them.I have never heard of the simultaneity of cause and effect and conditions. The notion of the simultaneity of cause and effect is taught nowhere except in certain groups within the modern Nichiren tradition, and it is a perversion of "inter-dependency" and is not taught in Chih-I's doctrine of ichinen sanzen. Which is not to say that there can never be simultaneity of cause and effect, but strictly speaking, it is not part of the Dharma. I think you are also mixing up "conditions" as understood in our physical world, and adding some some modern psychology about conditioned behavior.
Maybe not simultaneous, but pretty close sometimes. They are different at times depending on the circumstances. Generally you are correct that before an effect can manifest the conditions must be present, but I disagree that that the simultaneity of cause and effect is purely Nichiren, although you might be right. In any event, it is actually being proved out by Quantum Physics. "I think you are also mixing up "conditions" as understood in our physical world, and adding some modern psychology about conditioned behavior."I may be mixing these two together at times, because they are linked. The conditions of the physical world do impact the conditioned response of people in that environment. The people of Haiti are sleeping outside right now because they don't want to be trapped inside a building if there is an aftershock. That is a conditioned response due to a physical condition.
Damn you guys are predictable. I said it is being proved out, not already proven. And who cares anyway? Understand why you get angry and you'll understand more about Buddhism than any science can teach you about life.
Here is predictable:Your communication skills are lacking. Actually, they suck. That nothing is being "proved out" is not what your sentence implied. You said it was "actually being proved out". It is is not. Not even close. Once again you claim it's the reader's fault. Every time you make an outlandish statement you back peddle and claim the reader either doesn't understand you, which is mostly because of your verbiage, or they are somehow ignorant. The "a" word I refrained from using before I will now use: "ARROGANT". "You guys", indeed!
Damn you guys are childish.
I am sorry that I do not communicate effectively in this medium, but who does? It is not possible to cover all aspects of any conversation that is this deep. You said your self that there is an hypothesis at least. Maybe there is a theory which would mean they were able to prove some part of it. Regardless, they are actually attempting to prove it out.
We're bonding, tap, tap, no erasies, infinity, infinity.
You mean the medium where writing is the form of communication? Yeah, no one does that well. And what does prove it out mean? Is that different than prove it in?